Is it debate when you’re telling a bunch of lies? I really don’t understand why everyone is saying that CK was great at allowing a forum for debate. He spewed lies and hate, interrupted and dismissed people, and gas-lighted young people. It was gross. Not impressed. All he did was to attempt to radicalize young people.
I political violence is terrible and never justified. However, violence is much more a characteristic of the right wing in the US and Europe. That’s based on data, not opinion. It’s also a characteristic of authoritarians, and a part of the authoritarian playbook. They foster and stimulate and support violence and then when it happens, they blame it on the other side only to allow themselves to be more violent. This is Trump in spades. When Trump accuses his opponent of doing something, it’s generally a diversion tactic, a smoke screen for exactly what he is planning on doing. So you accuse the other side of violence so that you can more aggressively propagate violence. That is Trump and MAGA 100%. This is just factual, not an argument and it is not said to support political violence which is never justifiable.
Are you honestly suggesting that Charlie Kirk was earnestly debating - he was a bully of the highest order, he was not informed or dealing in facts & truth. He could get an audience but to now talk about him as if he was interested in real debate is disingenuous. Did he really bring arguments to the youth or did he create his own cultish following spewing hate speech. Sure the KKK were allowed to say what they said but that doesn’t mean it was advancing democracy.
Sadly, I agree that both Terry and Adam appear to be woefully out of touch with Kirk's influence among young men. I cringed when Terry suggested he'd let his son familiarize himself with someone like Kirk or Fuentes—with parental supervision and sincere discussion about the wrongness of it, that's reasonable. Otherwise, you're literally throwing them to the wolves! But neither of these men seem to be close enough to this group of young people to really see how vulnerable they are to divisive, nationalist sermonizing, and more importantly, how Kirk and Fuentes have *intentionally* propagated this army of "lonely men" who blame their failure to launch on women, people of color, and immigrants.
Sadly, Kirk misunderstood so many things, from the definitions of words, to positions on the second amendment. But in the end, it appears to be a planned assassination. I’m sad, that this happened as I am, every time we lose an American to a shooting. Charlie said things like, a few people will be sacrificed to protect the second amendment. My heart is sad and my brain is going places I wish it wouldn’t go to.
Thank Adam & Terry: A great positive conversation. Adam I don't want to blow any smoke but I do wish more republicans were like you. Stay in the fray. The light and dark parts of ones heart is a grand way of putting it. Mr. Trump has the ability to light up the darkness in ones heart and he is good at it. His every speech foments nothing but hate and violence. Mr. Kirk was a man who could stir the pot of hatred and vengeance but the killing of a father and husband was despicable . Jessy Watters calling for revenge is just plain wrong. Oh just to have a leader who could call for calm and peace would be godsend. Thanks again Adam
It wouldn't surprise me. I believe JFK and RFK's murders were by the FBI; Oswald was a patsy who was murdered and Jack Ruby was fine making the deal.
The Kennedys were aligned with MLK and civil rights, which the white male American patriarchy was terrified of.
The three of them were murdered for this imo. Racism and the white supremacist patriarchy have ruled this country for over 400 years. That doesn't just end because we "freed the slaves" and passed the Civil Rights Act.
And only white people can be racist. But the majority of whites will never grasp this.
It sure would be nice if this amount of discussion on violence took place when children are murdered in school. 24+ hours of nonstop talking about a right wing podcaster and NOTHING on the school shooting in Colorado. So next time there's a school shooting and children are murdered, let's have round the clock coverage. Or don't we care anymore? I guess women can always make more kids if they are that disposable to us.
I hope you do realize that you perfectly fit your description of the kind of person needed by the silent middle, even if that person doesn't run in 2028. I can't think of anyone who can better speak to your generation and those younger about the crisis we're in and why it's so crucial to work to save our democracy.
I have never heard an argument from Charlie Kirk that I could honestly consider "compelling." Sorry. In my view he did not represent the best traditions of democracy and debate. He was a sideshow spectacle who presumed he was right about everything; talked over people when they cornered him with logical, valid points; deflected and diverted attention when he was losing. And he promoted some repugnant opinions that, in my view, were harmful to society and detrimental to humankind. Describing Charlie Kirk as "all American" makes my soul cringe. And I'm sorry, Terry, "prove me wrong" doesn't "proclaim a willingness to hear" what anyone else had to say; it was a defiant challenge that said "I know I'm smarter and I'm right, and I dare you think otherwise." Charlie Kirk is responsible for poisoning thousands of young minds, encouraging them to repudiate empathy and to reject concern for the human condition, and our society is and will be worse for it.
Definitely first amendment is a basis to democracy and constitution. Yet, debate isn’t license to lie or promote conspiracy in order to win. The attorneys in the White House and others who support MAGA lie to win. HS debate teams start the frames for what’s ethical in debate. Then college debate experiences further teach the structure of debate. As I watch Bondi, I think she is wiling to lie to win. Sad times when it’s ok to lie and the worst of times when violence becomes acceptable. The assassination of any person is NOT ACCEPTABLE. I’m hopeful ethics and caring for humanity can rise through these very scary times. Stop the lies. Stop the hate. Courage to do as we can for a better future.
Adam, thanks for speaking with Terry! They all were great issues but the one I want to address is the truism that most immigrants appreciate being in the United States! Most of them are the hardest workers that do the jobs most Americans wouldn't touch! Happily!
For a time, I was a Calworks Employment Specialist which required a work component. Most of participants left the program because they would not accept the "dirty" jobs.
We owe these hard workers a faster and easier way to become citizens.
While I agree with Terry's position that you have to win the argument, the problem with so many on the far right is simply that you cannot argue factually or rationally with them. If both sides do not accept and agree upon at least baseline, foundational facts and principles, and one side continues to believe lies and conspiracy theories, it is essentially impossible to have a reasonable conversation with them. I wish I had an answer about how to get through to the side that denies demonstrable facts and reality, but I do not.
Is it debate when you’re telling a bunch of lies? I really don’t understand why everyone is saying that CK was great at allowing a forum for debate. He spewed lies and hate, interrupted and dismissed people, and gas-lighted young people. It was gross. Not impressed. All he did was to attempt to radicalize young people.
I political violence is terrible and never justified. However, violence is much more a characteristic of the right wing in the US and Europe. That’s based on data, not opinion. It’s also a characteristic of authoritarians, and a part of the authoritarian playbook. They foster and stimulate and support violence and then when it happens, they blame it on the other side only to allow themselves to be more violent. This is Trump in spades. When Trump accuses his opponent of doing something, it’s generally a diversion tactic, a smoke screen for exactly what he is planning on doing. So you accuse the other side of violence so that you can more aggressively propagate violence. That is Trump and MAGA 100%. This is just factual, not an argument and it is not said to support political violence which is never justifiable.
So true. It's really scary :(
https://ejpr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1475-6765.12668
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/countering-organized-violence-in-the-united-states/
I agree from just the little I have seen.
Are you honestly suggesting that Charlie Kirk was earnestly debating - he was a bully of the highest order, he was not informed or dealing in facts & truth. He could get an audience but to now talk about him as if he was interested in real debate is disingenuous. Did he really bring arguments to the youth or did he create his own cultish following spewing hate speech. Sure the KKK were allowed to say what they said but that doesn’t mean it was advancing democracy.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DOeboikkmMf/?igsh=MTV4OTZiMG94b3N1aw== I don’t know if you can get this clip, but it’s a good explanation. I have never had this reaction to Adam Kinzinger before, but he seems completely out of touch in this discussion.
Sadly, I agree that both Terry and Adam appear to be woefully out of touch with Kirk's influence among young men. I cringed when Terry suggested he'd let his son familiarize himself with someone like Kirk or Fuentes—with parental supervision and sincere discussion about the wrongness of it, that's reasonable. Otherwise, you're literally throwing them to the wolves! But neither of these men seem to be close enough to this group of young people to really see how vulnerable they are to divisive, nationalist sermonizing, and more importantly, how Kirk and Fuentes have *intentionally* propagated this army of "lonely men" who blame their failure to launch on women, people of color, and immigrants.
This is exactly how I see it.
This is great! It really explains what Kirk did. Thank you for sharing.
I agree
Sadly, Kirk misunderstood so many things, from the definitions of words, to positions on the second amendment. But in the end, it appears to be a planned assassination. I’m sad, that this happened as I am, every time we lose an American to a shooting. Charlie said things like, a few people will be sacrificed to protect the second amendment. My heart is sad and my brain is going places I wish it wouldn’t go to.
Thank Adam & Terry: A great positive conversation. Adam I don't want to blow any smoke but I do wish more republicans were like you. Stay in the fray. The light and dark parts of ones heart is a grand way of putting it. Mr. Trump has the ability to light up the darkness in ones heart and he is good at it. His every speech foments nothing but hate and violence. Mr. Kirk was a man who could stir the pot of hatred and vengeance but the killing of a father and husband was despicable . Jessy Watters calling for revenge is just plain wrong. Oh just to have a leader who could call for calm and peace would be godsend. Thanks again Adam
You and Terry should talk more. You are a good team.
I believe this was a Russian assassin to deflect from Epstein & give Trump a chance to go after the Left.
It wouldn't surprise me. I believe JFK and RFK's murders were by the FBI; Oswald was a patsy who was murdered and Jack Ruby was fine making the deal.
The Kennedys were aligned with MLK and civil rights, which the white male American patriarchy was terrified of.
The three of them were murdered for this imo. Racism and the white supremacist patriarchy have ruled this country for over 400 years. That doesn't just end because we "freed the slaves" and passed the Civil Rights Act.
And only white people can be racist. But the majority of whites will never grasp this.
It sure would be nice if this amount of discussion on violence took place when children are murdered in school. 24+ hours of nonstop talking about a right wing podcaster and NOTHING on the school shooting in Colorado. So next time there's a school shooting and children are murdered, let's have round the clock coverage. Or don't we care anymore? I guess women can always make more kids if they are that disposable to us.
You are doing this because it is the right thing to do and we need your voice. just be careful. We love you.
I hope you do realize that you perfectly fit your description of the kind of person needed by the silent middle, even if that person doesn't run in 2028. I can't think of anyone who can better speak to your generation and those younger about the crisis we're in and why it's so crucial to work to save our democracy.
You two are great together. I appreciate both of you. I wasn’t familiar with CK until yesterday… that is my ignorance.
I have never heard an argument from Charlie Kirk that I could honestly consider "compelling." Sorry. In my view he did not represent the best traditions of democracy and debate. He was a sideshow spectacle who presumed he was right about everything; talked over people when they cornered him with logical, valid points; deflected and diverted attention when he was losing. And he promoted some repugnant opinions that, in my view, were harmful to society and detrimental to humankind. Describing Charlie Kirk as "all American" makes my soul cringe. And I'm sorry, Terry, "prove me wrong" doesn't "proclaim a willingness to hear" what anyone else had to say; it was a defiant challenge that said "I know I'm smarter and I'm right, and I dare you think otherwise." Charlie Kirk is responsible for poisoning thousands of young minds, encouraging them to repudiate empathy and to reject concern for the human condition, and our society is and will be worse for it.
Definitely first amendment is a basis to democracy and constitution. Yet, debate isn’t license to lie or promote conspiracy in order to win. The attorneys in the White House and others who support MAGA lie to win. HS debate teams start the frames for what’s ethical in debate. Then college debate experiences further teach the structure of debate. As I watch Bondi, I think she is wiling to lie to win. Sad times when it’s ok to lie and the worst of times when violence becomes acceptable. The assassination of any person is NOT ACCEPTABLE. I’m hopeful ethics and caring for humanity can rise through these very scary times. Stop the lies. Stop the hate. Courage to do as we can for a better future.
Adam, thanks for speaking with Terry! They all were great issues but the one I want to address is the truism that most immigrants appreciate being in the United States! Most of them are the hardest workers that do the jobs most Americans wouldn't touch! Happily!
For a time, I was a Calworks Employment Specialist which required a work component. Most of participants left the program because they would not accept the "dirty" jobs.
We owe these hard workers a faster and easier way to become citizens.
God forgive the Americans who mistreat them.
While I agree with Terry's position that you have to win the argument, the problem with so many on the far right is simply that you cannot argue factually or rationally with them. If both sides do not accept and agree upon at least baseline, foundational facts and principles, and one side continues to believe lies and conspiracy theories, it is essentially impossible to have a reasonable conversation with them. I wish I had an answer about how to get through to the side that denies demonstrable facts and reality, but I do not.
I don’t view Maga and Christian nationalism as political
It has nothing to do with policy or governing
Is all about forcing beliefs and a way of life on every single American against their will. It is about taking away our rights and our freedoms.
It’s about causing pain and suffering to ordinary Americans .
Just say all of this is political does not resonate. It has nothing to do with politics or policy or governing.
It has to do with a manipulative HOSTILE takeover and destruction of our country and our constitution.
To Terry, that is the million dollar question. Those people, the apathetic voters who don't vote; how do we get them back to the voting booth??